Gerard W. Gawalt,who received his PhD. From Clark University in 1969, has been a Specialist in American History at the Library of Congress for more than thirty years. Gawalt has been the historical editor and author of many books and articles on the American Revolution, the founders of the nation, and Thomas Jefferson and his proteges.

His latest works are: author, "Drafting the Declaration" in The Declaration of Independence: Founding Principles (Congressional Quarterly Press, forthcoming); joint-author, Thomas Jefferson: Genius of Liberty (Viking Press, 2000); co-author and historical editor, The Declaration of Independence: The Evolution of the Text (The Library of Congress and the Thomas Jefferson Memorial Foundation, 1999; author and historical editor Justifying Jefferson: the Political Writings of John James Beckley (Library of Congress, 1995).

He was the curator of the Library of Congress' bicentennial exhibit, Thomas Jefferson, and is the curator for the Library of Congress' major exhibit to commemorate the Lewis and Clark Expedition in 2003.

Gawalt has appeared as a historical commentator and expert in more than 100 media events, including six of the C-SPAN Presidential Series, the Today Show, and the History Channel. He has traveled throughout the country speaking on America's founders and early American politics.

Meeting Transcript

Club Leader: How are you? How did you become interested in Thomas Jefferson and James Madison?

Gerard Gawalt: Jefferson and Madison are the two most important people in the founding of the nation. Their papers are here at the Library of Congress and part of my curatorial responsibility.

Club Leader: What are your responsibilities at the Library of Congress?

Gerard Gawalt:I am the specialist in early American History in the Manuscript Division of the Library of Congress and as such am responsible for the acquisition, maintenance of the early America and making the papers available to the public.

Camgirl in American Fork, UT asks: What is the web page for the Lib of Congress-American Memory?

Gerard Gawalt:You simply have to log in on the Library of Congress homepage and there will be an American Memory icon to click on.

Club Leader:What can the public see when they go to the Library of Congress and visit your department?

Gerard Gawalt:The papers of Madison and Jefferson are not available to see in person, although the public can view millions of other documents in the original. But we do not serve the originals of papers that are available on microfilm.

Scarlett54 in Chicago, IL asks: Isn't it true that Thomas Jefferson destroyed many of his personal papers before his death? Why did he do this? Any indication in the correspondence between Madison & Jefferson to explain such an action? Curious, as wasn't it Madison who made arrangements to have his writings published after his death?

Gerard Gawalt:There is no evidence that Jefferson destroyed large numbers of his letters before his death. Except for his correspondence with his wife Martha. Jefferson and Short, a protege of his, did discuss the destruction of a few items around 1803.

lostinspace in Montgomery, AL asks: What is the most interesting correspondence between Madison and Jefferson in the Library's collection?

Gerard Gawalt:Some of the most interesting has to do with the formation of the constitution and the preparation of the Bill of Rights.

Club Leader: Can you tell us about the relationship between Madison and Jefferson? How did they meet? What they thought of each other?

Gerard Gawalt:Jefferson and Madison lived only 25 miles apart. But they did not meet until the fall of 1776 when both were members of the Virginia Assembly. They became friends in 1779 when Jefferson was governor and Madison was on the governor's council. Their friendship was personal, philosophical and political. It outlasted any difficulties.

mes28269 in Charlotte, NC asks: When corresponding with Jefferson during the constitutional convention, how did Madison justify his support for a strong central government when Jefferson was so vehemently against this??

Gerard Gawalt: Madison argued that it was necessary for the federal government to operate directly on the people and by pass the states. The states were too powerful according to Madison.

GBD in ERIE, PA asks: What political books did Jefferson and Madison read or share that influenced their writings?

Gerard Gawalt: They were both influenced by Locke's Treatise on Government and Algernon Sidney's book on republican government. Jefferson considered Sidney's book as the single most important book on the republican form of government. Sidney was hung for sedition in England in part for writing that book.

deanl in Morris, MN asks: What was Jefferson's role in drafting the Bill of Rights, specifically the 1st amendment clauses pertaining to religion?

Gerard Gawalt: Jefferson was of course in France when the Bill of Rights was drafted. But he had written to Madison noting the absence of any specific right of religious freedom. Madison and Jefferson had collaborated on the Virginia Bill of Religious Freedom and so Madison was fully aware of Jefferson's views of the absolute separation of church and state.

Mary hines of Florida asks: Where did the term separation of Church and State originate? This term is not mentioned in the Constitution. Why? Was it the original intent of the Founding Fathers?

Gerard Gawalt: The state had established churches in most countries until the United States began to disestablish its churches or "separate" the church from the state government-whether on a federal or local level

inipie in Oneonta, NY asks: Was the friendship and lecherousness correspndence between Adams and Jefferson on the same par as that between Jefferson and Madison?

Gerard Gawalt:No. Jefferson and Madison correspondence on an intimate basis for nearly fifty years from 1780 to 1826. the Adams Jefferson correspondence was interrupted several times by political differences and never achieved the partnership quality of Jefferson and Madison. Although the Adams Jefferson correspondence was very intellectual and extremely interesting.

Paula Colvin asks: Please discuss party affiliations of Adams/Federalst, Jefferson & Madison/Dem Rep in light of Madison's writing of Fed Papers & which party did Washington lean towards.Leeesburg, VA

Gerard Gawalt:Washington was a federalist. The term at first meant those who supported the federal government. And so Jefferson and Madison were also federalists in the large sense. The split came when Jefferson and Madison began to fear that the federal government was itself becoming too powerful and that certain instruments of the federal government, such as the national bank, had invaded the personal rights of individuals. Jefferson and Madison believed foremost in the government's obligation to protect in

Me101 in Tomball, TX asks: How old were they when they first met?

Gerard Gawalt:Jefferson was thirty three and Madison was 25.

Adam Bittmann in Frenchtown, NJ asks: How did the native americans influence our form of government?Is there any evidence that Jefferson was influenced by the Iroquois Federation?

Gerard Gawalt:Jefferson was certainly aware of the Iroquois Confederation and he was an admirer of the Native American tribal government. Mainly because the tribal government was very limited and as he understood it the tribal leaders were selected by tribal members. The Iroquois Confederation was one of many governmental confederations known to Jefferson and Madison.

Scrammer in Algeria asks: Steven said recently that future programs would focus on the slavery issues subsequent to our founding. My question addresses agrarian econo cs. My research shows that the planters had mortgaged their land and their slaves (property) to foreign banks, particularly in Jefferson's case, Dutch banks. My theory is that collateralizing their plantations and farms boxed them in from ending slavery, as they would have lost everything had they released their labor force. I believe these mortgages insured the Secession War to follow, as evidence also by the compromises of 1820 and 1847 regarding slavery's expansion into the new territories. In essence, the slave owners and their economic existence was pledged as collateral - and that meant the only solution for them was to continue slavery. What is your opinion on this?

Gerard Gawalt:Jefferson was himself heavily in debt and in fact freed only a few of his slaves-all members of the Hemings family. Madison was less heavily in debt but did not free his slaves because he thought he had an obligation to preserve the financial value for the support of his wife and siblings. Both supported the overseas colonization of freed slaves.

hgschoger in cortland, OH asks: How much influence did the works of Locke and Montequieu have on the framers of the Declaration and the Constitution, especially Madison and Jefferson? Can we trace either of Locke's or Montesquieu words directly to the verbiage in either of our founding documents?

Gerard Gawalt:There is no direct verbal linkage but the ideas of Locke and Montesquieu are present. Locke is particularly evident in the natural rights concepts of and its right of Revolution. Montesquieu is particularly important for the concept of the separation of powers in government between the executive, legislative, and judicial branches of government.

Me101 in Tomball, TX asks: Was Jefferson a Christian, if so what was his position on slavery, did he own any? Did Madison own any?

Gerard Gawalt:Jefferson was a deist. And he spent considerable effort trying to prove that Jesus was not God or did not perform miracles. In fact he took all those references out of his "bible." Both Jefferson and Madison owned more than 100 slaves. Both bought and sold slaves and both also held indentured servants.

GBD in ERIE, PA asks: What events in Jefferson's life influenced his views toward separation of Church and State?

Gerard Gawalt:Jefferson was particularly influenced by his experience in Virginia where the Episcopal Church was the established church and the fact that it was considered very conservative and a supporter of the British government. He was influenced also by the philosophical view that individual people should select their own religious views of whatever variety they might hold or even none if they should so choose.

msaggio in Cleveland, OH asks: Regarding the 1250 letters exchanged between Madison and Jefferson. Are they extant? If so, have they ever been published, to your knowledge? Thank you.

Gerard Gawalt:Virtually all of those letters are present in either the recipient or retained copy form in the Madison and Jefferson Papers are the library of Congress. They are available on line in the Jefferson Papers(about 800 of them) and they have been published in a handy three volume work edited by James M. Smith and published by W.W. Norton.

Duke Brown of Charleston, SC asks: Please talk about Thomas Jefferson's thoughts about the 8 presidents before George Washington, particularly John Hansen.

Gerard Gawalt:Jefferson made no public comments on John Hanson as president of the Confederation Congress that I am aware of. I don't believe he would have considered them a president of the United States in the same sense as Washington, but rather as presidents of either the Continental or Confederation Congress which was an entirely different office.

deanl in Morris, MN asks: What was Jefferson's role in drafting the Bill of Rights, specifically the 1st amendment clauses pertaining to religion?

Gerard Gawalt:Jefferson was in France during the writing of the Bill of Rights. But he wrote to Madison that one of the most important things missing from the new constitution was a Bill of Rights, and specifically he mentioned the absence of religious freedom Jefferson and Madison had collaborated on the Virginia Act of REligious Freedom which was drafted by Jefferson in 1777 and enacted under Madison's tutelage by the Virginia Assembly in January 1786.

Nelson Dionne of NH asks: How was the Declaration of Independence actually conveyed to the British government?

Gerard Gawalt:That is a good question. Copies were published in the various states and by the direction of the Continental Congress and a copy was acquired by the British commander in New York. The British first saw it in england in newspaper form.

Ben jarratt Brown of Alexandria, Virginia asks: No mention was made today of the Scottish Declaration of Arbroth. Did Jefferson or Madison draw on it in drafting the Declaration of Independence?

Gerard Gawalt:Not to my knowledge. But both were educated by teachers from Scotland and so it is entirely possible if not likely that they were familiar with it.

Me101 in Tomball, TX asks: Do you know of any good research material on Jefferson and Madison?, it would be a big help, thanks.

Gerard Gawalt:The Madison-Jefferson correspondence is published as previously mentioned by W.W.Norton called The Republic of Letters: the Correspondence between Jefferson and Madison. There are any number of good biographies of these men. Joseph Ellis and Noble Cunningham have good one volume biographies of Jefferson and androgenRobert Rutland and Ralph Ketcham have good biographies of Madison.

leesburg in Leesburg, VA asks: Dr. Maier referred to Federal Convention. Is this what contemporaries called what we usually call th Constitutional Convention?

Gerard Gawalt:Yes the Federal Convention is the Constitutional Convention that met in Philadelphia in 1787. Each state then held a convention to ratify the federal constitution and sometimes these are referred to as the Virginia Federal Convention(for example).

marilynw in Dearborn, MI asks: Question asked earlier: does library have copy of Madison's notes of proceedings to write the constitution, and can the public read these notes?

Gerard Gawalt:The Library has Madison Notes on the Constitutional Convention and they are considered a top treasure of the Library and kept in a vault. You can read them in published form and on microfilm and soon they will be on-line at the Library's American Memory site.

Agusbear in Union, MI asks: A caller this morning asserted that most if not all of the founders were Whigs. He went on to attribute the Whigs with Anti-papist sentiments. Setting aside the specific controversy regarding anti-Catholicism, I found it interesting to associate the founders with the Whigs. I know Franklin associated largely with Whigs in his efforts to achieve reconciliation with the British government which was represented at that time by Tories. What validity do you find in the callers point regarding the founders and Whig sentiment. Did Federalists join in Whig sentiments?

Gerard Gawalt:Jefferson and Madison would be considered Whigs by historians. But I believe that they toeholdwould not have considered themselves Whigs because the Whigs were a British political faction, and Jefferson and Madison were leading revolutionaries. Whigs were not the only anti-Catholic politicians, but both Jefferson and Madison were strong supporters of religious toleration and freedom.

Club Leader: How did Madison's work in 1774 Summary Views of the Rights of British America help in the cause for independence compared to Paine's Common Sense?

Gerard Gawalt:Jefferson was the author of the Summary View of the Rights of British America-which he drafted as instructions to the Virginia delegates to Congress in 1774. Paine's call for an immediate declaration of Independence in January of 1776 was instrumental in focusing attention in the public mind on a declaration of independence in form as well as in fact. Revolution is in fact a declaration of independence.

leesburg in Leesburg, VA asks: Thanks for your clarifications! One more question on terminology; earlier you referred to meeting I know as Second Continental Congress by another term. (Rev. Cong. I believe) Again, is your terminology the one used at that time?

Gerard Gawalt:The first Continental Congress met in 1774. From 1775 to the adoption of the Articles of Confederation the Congress was known as the Second Continental Congress. After the adoption of the Articles of Confederation in March 1780 Congress was known as the Confederation Congress.

iAmerican in Atlanta, GA asks: Would Jefferson's word on 1/19/1810 to Samuel Kercheval be considered anything buy anti-Papist?

Gerard Gawalt:Jefferson was certainly not a supporter of the institutional papacy or the institutional Roman Catholic Church. He considered priests of all religious as possible instruments of oppression and he was particularly offended by the Inquisition because it was so opposed to his view of religious toleration and freedom. Jefferson had a bad experience with the effects of the Catholic Church in France.

Camgirl in American Fork, UT asks: As a homeschooling mom, what is the first thing to read after the Dec of Ind. and the Constitution?

Gerard Gawalt:Assuming your students are of high school age, they might want to read some of the Federalist Papers-particularly number 10.

Club Leader:Thank you for joining us today. Do you have any last comments for our book club members, Mr. Gawalt?

Gerard Gawalt:Thank you for having me.

leesburg in Leesburg, VA asks: Thanks for the info!

Gerard Gawalt:You can always reach me at the Library of Congress.